Are you ready for 7 million people on tiny Singapore?
-
Very strange indeed. I am just pointing out the problems as they are, and you asking me for solutions to these problems? :siao:
You said \"throw stones very easy\", but the fact is, there are many people who can't even identify / recognize the problems! What do you call these people? :rotflmao:
Also, by asking me for solutions, you thought I am the ones given the job of solving these problems and in turn being paid Millions $ of salary a year? :evil:3Boys:
And what's your solution, keeping in mind balance of payments, need to control car population, and free market economy?JannettLee:
In summary, why we are in this current situation - high cost of living today?
It is the consequences of Gahman's policies all these years.
1) GST
2) Commercial & industrial properties prices and hence rental escalation
3) Transportation cost
Throw stones very easy hor.... -
3Boys:
Crazy isn't it.
Amazing! 20 years after GST has been implemented, folks still do not understand the raison d'être behind a consumption tax, as opposed to an income tax. :roll:Irrelevant:
[quote=\"JannettLee\"]
I know and that's why cost of living is very high for all these countries! There are many ways to generate revenue for governments. If you can't administer GST well, you are incurring high cost of living. This is what we are experiencing the effect of it now and it is a huge burden to majority people here.
Imagine such opposition supporters driving future government policies and bringing ruin.[/quote]You are wrong, I vote for PAP. However, I don't agree with some policies/the implementation and I felt that I need to point out to them and can't bear to see them ruining Singapore. While I agree with white paper, but they need to recognize all the other problems and solve them. -
Just relax:
Interesting proposition. We have to agree that we disagree.
I don't think there is anything to disagree with what I have said. I have merely stated that the Govt. must continue to be robust and not pander to populist policies based on the people's feedback as that is the slippery road to partisan politics that currently has made many democracies less than efficient. For these other democracies such deficiencies and inefficiencies will not cripple the country. Singapore does not have the luxury of allowing for these inefficiencies or deficiencies as another country or large Chinese, Indian or neighboring ASEAN city could come in to take over the position that Singapore occupies in a certain sector.
First in your model, there is only 3 groups of people - 1) an elite and knows it all government and civil service, 2) an ignorant majority population that is prone to populist \"wrong decision\" and needs to be led and governed to accomodate unpopular measures and 3) a minority who will follow the government as they think that the government are always right and or who aspire to be a member of the elite.
To be brunt, I wish to be no part of such a \"naive model\". Our population has come a long way from the mostly uneducated generation of our fathers' era. We are capable of sound judgement. At least I think I am, being an economist and engineer by training. We are currently blessed with pple like Ngiam Tong Dow, Prof Tommy Koh, Lim Chong Yah, Yeoh Lam Keong, Tan Cheng Bok etc who have voiced their concerns on recent policies. I am not sure which group in your model you belong to. I have faith that the average Singaporean have sound judgement and if the majority are not comfortable with some issues, we need to discuss in ernest where the issue is and address the issue. Now is it me who is naive?
It is a fallacy that democracy breeds inefficiency and we can become a Philippines, Indonesia and Malaysia and go into a tailspin.
If you take a cross section snapshot of all the countries in the world and arrange them into democratic/partisan and single party, authoritarian type.
Singapore gravitates towards the group containing North Korean, China, Syria etc which is heavily populated with African countries. Whereas the partisan system government group consists of US, Japan, European countries and of course countries like Philippines and Indonesia and Malaysia bringing up the rear. But we have to take into account that Philippines got rid of Marcos 20 years ago and Indonesia is transforming from the Suharto era of cronyism. The question is which group would you like to see Singapore in?
We are fortunate that we are a miracle thanks to the PAP old guards and excellent technocrats like Goh Keng Swee, S Rajaratnam and Ngiam Tong Dow. But that miracle may likely not last given the statistics. Definitely not with the set of policies in the recent past.
Is Singapore willing to sacrifice the insurance of checks and balances and political development for dubious sake of efficiency as claimed? The scandinavian countries are no better endowed than singapore but they are thriving with bipartisan political system. So is Israel.
If you're interested, you may refer to the research work by MIT Prof - Acemoglu on political institutions and economic growth. -
I nearly vomited on reading your below statement with reference to UK:
\"And by the way the UK govt. in 2011 has acknowledged that they have been examining the IP prog. from Singapore and plan to introduce a version of the IP prog in the UK system as well. (source UK Times Educational Supplement Mar 2011). They see the merits but unlike Singapore there are vested interests in the UK that are trying to stop a program that can only benefit the brighter student without depriving the average student of the opportunity to study as far as possible\".
Actually, from my understanding of UK, the British people actually see the ill of the IP system and are determined to do whatever they can to stop an elitist scheme that only benefits a small number of students and depriving the average students of the opportunities to have access to a fully comprehensive cirruculum and opportunities to do as well if not better than these small number of students! British will never allow such 2-tier systems where eg there is a GEP programme where the curiculum is developed using tax payers' money and yet only disclosed to a small number of students and not the rest of the students!
Many countries nowsdays call them \"democracy\", but some are just more \"democracy\" than others and are able to stop those people in power from creating an elitist system that seems to be for the benefits of themselves and are self fulfilling...
JannettLee:
I am shock to read that you don't even know I am referring to Singapore. :yikes: Which other country has implement IP program in their public education system?[/quote]Just relax:
[quote=\"JannettLee\"]Every time, the up and coming leader wanted to implement something in the name of reducing stress for students by implementing IP program, cooling property market by CMs and to help the poor by implementing GST (this is a joke!), I am very scare le because he always overlook the consequences of every policy. As a result, create more stressful education system for students here with IP program, incurring more business operating costs and making the unemployed, old, poor and less well to do families's life worsen.
I knew some have highly regarded him as a person who has foresight but I regarded him as a person who has a lot of oversight instead.
I thought this thread is about Singapore :rotflmao: I am not interested in other countries unless it affects Singapore
I know sometimes we like to imagine things are worse than they are, :sad: and that usually happens when people have free time
Just relax:
What I am puzzled is your reference to the IP prog being a source of stress which is not what it is at all. So that is why I ask why is this relevant to Singapore or are u even talking about Singapore at all. Even when good programs are introduced fairy tales come out about it being stressful or bad :skeptical:
And by the way the UK govt. in 2011 has acknowledged that they have been examining the IP prog. from Singapore and plan to introduce a version of the IP prog in the UK system as well. (source UK Times Educational Supplement Mar 2011)
They see the merits but unlike Singapore there are vested interests in the UK that are trying to stop a program that can only benefit the brighter student without depriving the average student of the opportunity to study as far as possible. These vested interests have the \"dog in the manger\" attitude and are perfectly happy with the status quo where everything remains equally bad, as then everybody is equally badly affected. That unfortunately is what the critics of the IP prog in Singapore are trying to do as well. -
[quote=\"JannettLee\"]I nearly vomited on reading your below statement with reference to UK:
\"And by the way the UK govt. in 2011 has acknowledged that they have been examining the IP prog. from Singapore and plan to introduce a version of the IP prog in the UK system as well. (source UK Times Educational Supplement Mar 2011). They see the merits but unlike Singapore there are vested interests in the UK that are trying to stop a program that can only benefit the brighter student without depriving the average student of the opportunity to study as far as possible\".
Actually, from my understanding of UK, the British people actually see the ill of the IP system and are determined to do whatever they can to stop an elitist scheme that only benefits a small number of students and depriving the average students of the opportunities to have access to a fully comprehensive cirruculum and opportunities to do as well if not better than these small number of students! British will never allow such 2-tier systems where eg there is a GEP programme where the curiculum is developed using tax payers' money and yet only disclosed to a small number of students and not the rest of the students!
Many countries nowsdays call them \"democracy\", but some are just more \"democracy\" than others and are able to stop those people in power from creating an elitist system that seems to be for the benefits of themselves and are self fulfilling...
[quote=\"JannettLee\"]
Ah yes now I know who you are. :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :welcome:
I was right to call you a troll. :imcool: After having been banned by Chief Kiasu on other threads, you are back again. I cannot remember your other names that you used
The strange writing and English reminded me of someone. So now the fun begins again :rahrah: :rahrah:
Please make sure you are sitting down when you read this :rotflmao:
IP type progs are available in some states in the U.S., HK, Korea, Netherlands and Canada (to name some of the countries). Apparently the UK had been running a version of the IP prog. from 2002-2007 before funding stopped. I think that is why the UK govt. is looking at it again in 2011. Not sure if it's implemented.
Wales implemented it recently in 2011/2012 and are reviewing how to streamline and make it more widespread.
Anyway i am glad that I can still see a troll a mile away :boogie: :boogie:
Anyway now it is in the hands of Chief Kiasu :rubhands: LET THE FUN BEGIN :rahrah: :boogie: :imcool: -
I can only say that you are just trying to avoid/blush aside real issues and sprouting things that are not true. I don't have time to address all, so I just point out 1 will do regarding your statement:
\"where everybody is taxed anyway since they all pay VAT on every product and it does not matter if you are homeless or young\"
So, you are denying that in those countries eg with VAT, Medicines, basic food necessities, young children's products are exempted from VAT?
Otherwise, we already know that the old, the young in UK are basically are more than less VAT tax-free if they just consume basic food necessities and their medicine and children's clothings etc are also VAT tax-free and you are still insisting that they are taxed no matter if they are homeless or young?JannettLee:
It is very important for me to clarify all the misleading statements you made, as below (in same blue colour):
Just relax:
At the time when GST was 1st mooted there was lobbying that certain essential food items should not have GST because of the poor. Govt. made the promise that GST was essential as a revenue creator so that no. of people paying income tax could be reduced and that Govt. would give GST vouchers to help needy.
Did the govt say they give GST vouchers to the needy only after implementing GST? Are you sure before that they didn't give any vouchers (although not in the name of \"GST vouchers\")? Changed name to \"GST vouchers\" to justify GST? More importantly is how much more benefits they give to the poor after implementing GST? Didn't they try to shoot down the suggestion of additional $30 per month for the needy a few years ago?
And How do you define \"needy\"? I am afraid there are many more who have fallen outside the govt's definition of \"needy\" after being slapped with GST.
I would like to remind you that when GST has been implemented, 1 of the main reason is because they wanted to reduce (and had since reduced) the income tax top bracket from 25% to 18%, and hence reduce the income tax of the high-paying rich and they need to increase revenue from somewhere to make up for the tax revenue collection. In response to critism for reducing the tax of the rich while increasing the tax of the general people and imposing tax on the young, the retirees, the unemployed and the poor, they say they are implementing GST to help the poor. Now that GST has not been increased anymore, so does it mean that the govt has since decided \"not to help the poor\"?
To the extent no. of people paying income tax has not increased but has in fact reduced the Govt. has kept to its promise. So there is the raison d'être for Singapore's GST.
Number of people paying tax has not increased? Oh please don't beat around the bush and try to mislead people. You mean those people who are unemployed, the retirees, the house-wifes and the young ones who are too young to work are not \"people\"? After implementing GST, all of these people need to pay taxes for even drinking water! Remember, GST has been implemented on everything, including water, electricity etc!
Those who complain should look at those countries where GST is >10% and income tax is >30% and where everybody is taxed even when you die! (estate duty tax!), so u pay 3 types of taxes at least. In Singapore everybody pays GST but less than 30%, 20% (???) pay income tax.
Are you ignorant or what? Please compare apple to apple. Let me remind you if you are ignorant that in all those countries where GST is >10% and income tax is >30%, they are entitled to:
1) Medicines, basic food necessities, young children's products are exempted from GST/VAT.
2) For >30% of tax they pay, they are entitled to unemployment benefits and social benefits which they can claim and collect after they retire after certain age. So, the actual tax nett of all these benefits and entitlements are not that high after all.
Oh btw don't forget many countries have capital gains tax where they tax the profits on the sale of house or shares (Singapore does not have that)
So, you are saying that the govt should implement capital gains tax? I have no issue with that if that means taxing the rich more? :boogie:
Why do u think so many FTs want to come here? I sometimes wonder why Singaporeans complain so much :siao:
May be you can tell us why so many FTs want to come here? You mean their main aim of coming to singapore is to contribute to singapore and enrich the singapore citizens and not for themselves?Just relax:
The statements that you have highlighted in blue are not misleading. I am very puzzled as how you can equate giving away more than 1/2 of what you earn to taxes (where everybody is taxed anyway since they all pay VAT on every product and it does not matter if you are homeless or young) and where the social service network does not really work (please read BBC news about how the wonderful NHS has failed so spectacularly in the UK and then read CNN about how Obama is trying to fix a completely broken Social Security system in the US). I am surprised if you can even save anything if you give up more than 1/2 your salary. You only have 1/2 your salary to pay the mortgage, utilities, put food on the table and purchase the necessities of living.
Oh and by the way have you actually used the medical services of these countries that you are so fond of? Have you not realized in so many of these social welfare countries that you are so fond of the system is broken! Why is Europe in such a crisis? The Govts cannot continue to pay the pensions or provide the social welfare that they had promised. The Govts. cannot balance the budgets as the expenses of social welfare is going up as Europe ages and they have already taken 50% of income as taxes. So the crisis continues in Europe.
Have you seen the public and subsidized housing given to the poor there? Have you visited the council estates in Nottingham, UK? The HDB rental flats in Singapore are equivalent in standard to many of the private fully paid apartments you find in the UK
Now let's talk about education. The poor in the US, Europe or UK do not get
proper education as their schools are poorly funded, teachers poorly paid and these students never finish school. They do not get the opportunity to go to polytechnic or to ITE unlike Singapore children. Forget about going to university if you are poor. There is no money for bursaries unlike Singapore.
I think I have said enough. It is important you open your eyes to the difficulties other people face when their Govts take 50% of their monthly income and still cannot afford to give you basic social welfare. As they say \"welcome to Greece\". Need I say more -
Interesting. It is like when you lose an argument, you resorted to name-calling (see those you wrote in bold), and you tried to censure others through all means... :yikes:
Just relax:
[/quote]JannettLee:
I nearly vomited on reading your below statement with reference to UK:
\"And by the way the UK govt. in 2011 has acknowledged that they have been examining the IP prog. from Singapore and plan to introduce a version of the IP prog in the UK system as well. (source UK Times Educational Supplement Mar 2011). They see the merits but unlike Singapore there are vested interests in the UK that are trying to stop a program that can only benefit the brighter student without depriving the average student of the opportunity to study as far as possible\".
Actually, from my understanding of UK, the British people actually see the ill of the IP system and are determined to do whatever they can to stop an elitist scheme that only benefits a small number of students and depriving the average students of the opportunities to have access to a fully comprehensive cirruculum and opportunities to do as well if not better than these small number of students! British will never allow such 2-tier systems where eg there is a GEP programme where the curiculum is developed using tax payers' money and yet only disclosed to a small number of students and not the rest of the students!
Many countries nowsdays call them \"democracy\", but some are just more \"democracy\" than others and are able to stop those people in power from creating an elitist system that seems to be for the benefits of themselves and are self fulfilling...
[quote=\"JannettLee\"]
Ah yes now I know who you are. :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :welcome:
I was right to call you a troll. :imcool: After having been banned by Chief Kiasu on other threads, you are back again. I cannot remember your other names that you used The strange writing and English reminded me of someone. So now the fun begins again :rahrah: :rahrah:
Please make sure you are sitting down when you read this :rotflmao:
IP type progs are available in some states in the U.S., HK, Korea, Netherlands and Canada (to name some of the countries). Apparently the UK had been running a version of the IP prog. from 2002-2007 before funding stopped. I think that is why the UK govt. is looking at it again in 2011. Not sure if it's implemented.
Wales implemented it recently in 2011/2012 and are reviewing how to streamline and make it more widespread.
Anyway i am glad that I can still see a troll a mile away :boogie: :boogie:
Anyway now it is in the hands of Chief Kiasu :rubhands: LET THE FUN BEGIN :rahrah: :boogie: :imcool:Just relax:
Sigh! I wonder whether you are a troll? It seems good sense is in short supply although I must say most KSP forumers are pretty sensible even in their criticisms.
-
AWSP:
:goodpost:
Happy CNY....Just relax:
To me the Govt. is doing what it can in the circumstances and that it does not have all of the solutions.
The Govt. must not feel unsure of itself at this time in the face of the barrage of criticisms that it has faced. It must take heart and strength from its many policies that have worked in the past and to not be afraid to be bold again. There are enough Singaporeans who believe that we will overcome the challenges that we face but that the policies must be articulated clearly and Singaporeans convinced that what the Govt. is doing is right. i think it has been repeated ad nauseum that the Govt.'s misstep was to push the White Paper through in its final form as if it was a given that the people would accept the same on the face of it. We want the Govt. to understand that it can only get the support of the people if the Govt. itself believes in the people and that enough right-thinking, passionate, honest and upright citizens will pull together to ensure Singapore's future continues to shine brightly for generations to come.
And I disagree with your opinion. Sometimes INERTIA is better than takIng too strong a position. Especially in an \"very efficient society like Singapore\" where KPI is the sole metric of performance in the civil service and things get into the extreme.
A good robust system must be responsive to feedback. In history, there are numerous examples- failure of the communist regimes and excesses of the capitalist system during the industrial revolution. It is not good if the pendulum is swung to the extreme end.
Coming back to the point, what makes the policy makers so sure about their stand when there are some many dissenting voices even from learned pple like yeoh lam keong, ngiam tong dow, lim chong yah, tan cheng bok.
Immigration may be good to drive GDP growth, but we know that this will also drive up social inequality unless there is sufficient wealth redistribution measures through appropriate tax policies. Foreign talents intake can cut both ways, hurting income and employment of locals unless it is done properly to ensure that there is complementarity with the local employment and this requires detailed planning. I dont see these safeguards in the current white paper so how can we be sure that the balance does not get tipped too far. To think that we cannot even get the minimum wage law passed when countries all around us including HongKong has it implemented.
Closer to triviality, IP programme is good but not when there are so limited places and every thing hinges on PSLE. Teach less learn more is good but not when testing gets too far outside of the content that tuition is becomes essential and places the poor at a disadvantage. DSA is good because there are some kids with other talents but not when the poorer students are disadvantaged because their parents cannot sponsor swimming programmes and piano/violin lessons and are not given the options. Aren't these cases of good intention but require tweaking and responsiveness to feedback/
We are too far behind other countries in political development that we will suffer if nothing is done about it through our naivety.
And HAPPY CNY again!!! Lets hope we are more politically developed by 2016. -
VAT in the UK is not payable for most foods, children's clothing, newspapers and magazines. Whether you pay VAT or not does not depend on whether you are poor, old, a child, homeless etc. The UK VAT is now 20%, it was increased in 2011 and it was reported that the increase in VAT would hit the poorest the hardest.
The rich also buy food, magazines, children's clothing and newspapers so they too benefit from not paying VAT on these items.
So factually your statements about Singapore's GST impact were already wrong when you made a sweeping statement comparing it to the VAT and going on and on about how bad the GST was etc. yet praising the broken down social security system of Europe, UK and US.
As for calling a writer a troll, if the shoes fit, wear it. A person who cheats is a cheat, a person who lies is a liar, it is not name-calling to accurately describe the actions of a person. :imanangel:
I recall when you were previously asked on another thread about whether you were the same as a writer banned by Chief and you did not respond directly to that simple question but were instead quick to say such KSP forumers were calling you names and attacking you. :stompfeet: You wanted them punished i think :mad: And you are doing the same thing here! :rotflmao:
Oh I remember the fun times on those threads and here you are back again. As I said earlier :welcome: We are all friends here :grphug: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
Now to be fair I should probably look for those threads and tell the KSPs there you are back :rahrah: I do not want them to miss the fun :boogie:
And this time Chief Kiasu please let the troll continue writing, a lot of forumers say they use KSP to destress. They need the comic relief. And of course we never never engage in name calling :rubhands: -
Irrelevant:
We all know the intention, that's why Gahman allows more immigrants. Like I said, I welcome the white paper but they need to work on the problem of GST impacted our own people. Some people think I am a troll by stating the problem but yet welcoming the whitepaper. There should have differentiation in treatment between Singaporean and foreigner
Yeah man and I thought I gave enough clues for the answer.3Boys:
Crazy isn't it.
Imagine such opposition supporters driving future government policies and bringing ruin.
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