Adam Khoo: The expats will rule Singapore

[Parent1]

tamarind:

Staying in Singapore to work does not mean \"giving back to society\". They are milking the benefits from our economy, earning high pay so that they can bring back the money to their own country and retire comfortably.

Cheval:

I guess Singaporeans should have more open attitude toward PRs. Some come and stay but some others leave. THere's nothing unusual with it. With foreigners, at least for one thing: they bring different ways of thinking. This is an asset not a fault.

As to 'benefits', what benefits are you talking about? They make a living with their skills and pay everything from their pocket.

[Parent1]

tamarind:

I know many PRs studying in local universities and polytechnics. I think it is possible for the sons of PRs to continue to study here without serving NS.

Please check your facts.

tamarind:

I have no problem with PRs taking whatever job.As I wrote before, I am only worried that in times of war or disaster, who will be left behind to rebuild Singapore ? Looks like most Singaporeans think that our good times will last forever. Is there anyone else who worries about bad times in the future ?

Ask the Singaporeans who left for greener pastures.

[Cheval]

tamarind:

Cheval:

I was China PR becoming citizen.

I really hope that there are more PRs like you. The government is not releasing any official figures, but I think the % of PRs becoming citizens is very small.

My next door neighbour, a mommy from mainland China, said that it costs only RMB300(SGD60) to employ a full time nanny in China to take care of her child. So she sent her baby back to China to live with the grandparents, while the mommy stays in Singapore to work. The cost of living in China is still very low compared to Singapore.

* Overall, the % of PRs becoming citizens is very small, as you said. The reason is that the government exercises a strict control. But for people with high qualification, to take up citizenship is easy because this is encouraged. As a result, roughly among people I know, mostly working in A*STAT research institutes and NUS/NTU, 60-70% of PRs from PRC become citizens finally (after 6+ years of stay). Some left; some others prefer staying PR, thinking one day to return to China.

* China is too big and its economic development is heterogeneous. It does not make any sense to raise a figure to represent China. Shanghai, for example, is almost as expensive as Singapore, if not more. In my home town in Northeast China, 1000 yuans/month is considered a good salary. But in Shanghai, with 10000 yuans/month you can hardly make any saving.

[tamarind]

Parent1:

tamarind:

I know many PRs studying in local universities and polytechnics. I think it is possible for the sons of PRs to continue to study here without serving NS.

Please check your facts.

Here are the facts. My uncle is a PR. He did not want his son to become a Singapore citizen, because he did not want him to go NS. The son retained his Malaysian citizenship. He continued to study in local university, paying foreigner's tuition fees. After he found a job, he was offered permanent residence.

Here are the facts :
http://ica.gov.sg/page.aspx?pageid=151&secid=150

Under the Enlistment Act, all male Singapore Citizens and Permanent Residents are liable to register for National Service (NS) upon reaching 16½ years old. They are required to serve 2 years of full-time NS at 18 years old, followed by 40 days of Operationally Ready National Service per year till the age of 50 years (for officers) or 40 years (for other ranks).

Main applicants who are granted PR status under the first generation Professionals/Technical Personnel and Skilled Workers (PTS) Scheme and the Investor Scheme are exempted from NS. Male children who are granted PR status under their parents' sponsorship are liable for NS under the Enlistment Act.


When my uncle's son found a job, he was granted PR status under the first generation Professionals/Technical Personnel Scheme. That exempts him from NS.


Have you checked your facts ? What is the source of your facts ?



[quote]

tamarind:

I have no problem with PRs taking whatever job.As I wrote before, I am only worried that in times of war or disaster, who will be left behind to rebuild Singapore ? Looks like most Singaporeans think that our good times will last forever. Is there anyone else who worries about bad times in the future ?

Ask the Singaporeans who left for greener pastures.[/quote]What is the point of asking those who left ? It makes better sense to ask those who are still here. So is anyone worried ?

Parent1:

tamarind:

Staying in Singapore to work does not mean \"giving back to society\". They are milking the benefits from our economy, earning high pay so that they can bring back the money to their own country and retire comfortably.

Cheval:

I guess Singaporeans should have more open attitude toward PRs. Some come and stay but some others leave. THere's nothing unusual with it. With foreigners, at least for one thing: they bring different ways of thinking. This is an asset not a fault.

As to 'benefits', what benefits are you talking about? They make a living with their skills and pay everything from their pocket.

\"Giving back to society\" means giving money to charity or doing volunteer work. It is the wrong term to use. I have written a few times that I have nothing against PRs earning money here. The issue is concerning their loyalty in times of war or disaster.

[tamarind]

Cheval:

tamarind:

[quote=\"Cheval\"]I was China PR becoming citizen.

I really hope that there are more PRs like you. The government is not releasing any official figures, but I think the % of PRs becoming citizens is very small.

My next door neighbour, a mommy from mainland China, said that it costs only RMB300(SGD60) to employ a full time nanny in China to take care of her child. So she sent her baby back to China to live with the grandparents, while the mommy stays in Singapore to work. The cost of living in China is still very low compared to Singapore.

* Overall, the % of PRs becoming citizens is very small, as you said. The reason is that the government exercises a strict control. But for people with high qualification, to take up citizenship is easy because this is encouraged. As a result, roughly among people I know, mostly working in A*STAT research institutes and NUS/NTU, 60-70% of PRs from PRC become citizens finally (after 6+ years of stay). Some left; some others prefer staying PR, thinking one day to return to China.

* China is too big and its economic development is heterogeneous. It does not make any sense to raise a figure to represent China. Shanghai, for example, is almost as expensive as Singapore, if not more. In my home town in Northeast China, 1000 yuans/month is considered a good salary. But in Shanghai, with 10000 yuans/month you can hardly make any saving.[/quote]
Perhaps people in Shanghai will go and live in the countryside after they retire ?

My hubby said that his colleague will return to China in the future, because she is afraid that medical fees will be too high in Singapore when she is old.

[peterch]

tamarind:

I mean they will go back when they retire, not when their kids are still young. Note that most people will retire at 60 and live until 80 to 90 years old, so that is a very long time.

I think not all PRs will do this :D, we should notice what's the purpose of residing to Singapore and apply PR. If their purpose is to earned as much as they could, then they may be doing like what you quote. But I know lots of my PR friends that they reside here as they want to settle down here.

tamarind:

The only problem I have with PRs, is that when times are bad, do you think that they will stay back and help rebuild Singapore ?

For example, if a major earthquake or tsunami hit Singapore and wipe out the major infrastructure, do you think that PRs will stay in Singapore instead of going to another country that can offer them a high paying job ? Or if there is a war. How many PRs do you think will pledge their loyalty to Singapore ?

Maybe.....just maybe..... if these things really happen to this land, not only PRs will flee, I think lots of citizens will flee too. We have to be realistic about this. One will never know what will they do until we are experiencing things that very bad.... This is human nature, they will seek for safety of their family first on top of other things

tamarind:

My son will be going to National Service. I have nothing against NS. In fact, I will send my daughter to NS if the government asks me to. I am only worried that there are not enough loyal Singaporeans to fight together with them.

My family and I my self are still foreigners, waiting for our PR status. But frankly speaking, I feel home whenever I am in Singapore, as I grew up here back then during 80's. Although we are still waiting for the PR status, I've explained to my DS that he has to go for NS if he had to. And I heard that NS now is not that 'scary' as last time

If we are talking about loyalty, we will never knew until those things really happen to this land. Then we could see who are really loyal and who are not.

So maybe, don't judge all the PRs flatly are the same. Some PRs are more 'Singapore' than some Singaporeans. :?

[oscarsem]

i do agree with peterch "don’t judge all the PRs flatly are the same." I found some Singaporeans can be ugly and selfish as they want to be while some PRs are truly acted like true local Singaporeans. Regardless the nationalities and race, they are bound to have have some black sheeps around us.

And I believed most countries or even all countries also faced the same problems.
What we can do is to prepare our kids to the world we are in and at the same time and important, do our parts to impart and instill responsible values to our kids.

[minnie2004]

I'm puzzled by all the debates regarding PRs and the hostility toward non-ang moh foreigners in Singapore. First of all, the so-called \"PR\" in Singapore is not really \"permanent\" as it has to be renewed every 5 years or so. So what's point talking about loyalty toward a country in which you don't have permanent residence in? The biggest joke is to ask PRs to serve NS. If you are a citizen of country A where you have the right of permanent residence, and a PR of Singapore where your right of residence is subject to renewal, which side do you think you'll be on if country A goes into war with Singapore?


In HK where I come from, the \"P\" in \"PR\" really means \"permanent\". Also, there's no differentiation (or more appropriately, discrimination) vs citizens and they enjoy exactly the same benefits as every other HK passport holders. No higher school fees, higher maid's levy, higher hospital bills, higher anything designed to differentiate PRs from the locals. That's one of the reasons HK is attracting so many \"foreign talents\" despite its polluted air and high costs of living. Maybe HK is an exception as people there are not as patriotic as Singaporeans due to a lack of nationalistic education in schools. But this also makes foreigners more readily accepted by the locals. This is what makes HK a true cosmopolitan city.

It's only human nature that people continue to seek what they consider a better life for them and their family. That's what brought so many Chinese immigrants to Singapore in the first place when China was suffering from war and poverty early last century. These people were just looking for a better life in a foreign land.

If there's war or natural disaster here, would you not bring your family to a safer place? If there's a better job opportunity in another country, does it mean it's disloyal to your country by moving to that country? Do you want to be discriminated if you're a foreigner working in that country?

I hope I'm not offending any Singaporeans. I just want to live in a peaceful and harmonious society without all the hatred, racism and discrimination, where ever that is.

\"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one\"

:celebrate:

[tree nymph]

peterch:

tamarind:

I mean they will go back when they retire, not when their kids are still young. Note that most people will retire at 60 and live until 80 to 90 years old, so that is a very long time.

I think not all PRs will do this :D, we should notice what's the purpose of residing to Singapore and apply PR. If their purpose is to earned as much as they could, then they may be doing like what you quote. But I know lots of my PR friends that they reside here as they want to settle down here.
---------------------

So maybe, don't judge all the PRs flatly are the same. Some PRs are more 'Singapore' than some Singaporeans. :?

I'm currently taking a diploma Chinese course and 80% of my coursemates are mainland chinese. Out of these, 80% are looking to get the diploma to apply for PR in Singapore so that they can get better paying job, save enough to put their kids in school etc and go back to China. 10% are married to Singaporean and looking to receive this diploma to enable them to work so they can earn some money and not waste them time here. 5% moved here with their hubby (and kid), they have not decided yet if they are going to make singapore their home, but at this moment, they are still planning to go back. 5% married to locals and running their own chinese enrichment centres and they may not move back to China and are mentally prepared that their boys may need to serve NS.

So from my classmates, you can see that majority is still going back. The sample class size is 50 people.

But I guess PRs from different countries they have different thinking and culture expectations. I spoke to a few Chinese PRs, those who are doing well back in China, prob won't come to singapore. the reasons i got were that the quality of life is better there. And i couldn't agree more! Even in cities like shanghai, you can still make a decent living if you work hard and you can get good quality help at a fraction of what you are paying here.

Maybe i should consider retiring in some nice picturesque Chinese town so that my money can last me longer... maybe I'm the Singaporean who doesn't think like a Singaporean?? But i love Singapore!

[tree nymph]

minnie2004:

I'm puzzled by all the debates regarding PRs and the hostility toward non-ang moh foreigners in Singapore. First of all, the so-called \"PR\" in Singapore is not really \"permanent\" as it has to be renewed every 5 years or so. So what's point talking about loyalty toward a country in which you don't have permanent residence in? The biggest joke is to ask PRs to serve NS. If you are a citizen of country A where you have the right of permanent residence, and a PR of Singapore where your right of residence is subject to renewal, which side do you think you'll be on if country A goes into war with Singapore?


In HK where I come from, the \"P\" in \"PR\" really means \"permanent\". Also, there's no differentiation (or more appropriately, discrimination) vs citizens and they enjoy exactly the same benefits as every other HK passport holders. No higher school fees, higher maid's levy, higher hospital bills, higher anything designed to differentiate PRs from the locals. That's one of the reasons HK is attracting so many \"foreign talents\" despite its polluted air and high costs of living. Maybe HK is an exception as people there are not as patriotic as Singaporeans due to a lack of nationalistic education in schools. But this also makes foreigners more readily accepted by the locals. This is what makes HK a true cosmopolitan city.

It's only human nature that people continue to seek what they consider a better life for them and their family. That's what brought so many Chinese immigrants to Singapore in the first place when China was suffering from war and poverty early last century. These people were just looking for a better life in a foreign land.

If there's war or natural disaster here, would you not bring your family to a safer place? If there's a better job opportunity in another country, does it mean it's disloyal to your country by moving to that country? Do you want to be discriminated if you're a foreigner working in that country?

I hope I'm not offending any Singaporeans. I just want to live in a peaceful and harmonious society without all the hatred, racism and discrimination, where ever that is.

\"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one\"

:celebrate:

Hi!

What kind of benefits do you have in HK? how much do you pay for schools, govt hospitals, and such?