Any Updates As To When PSLE T-Scores Will Be Scrapped?
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Balloting has been there all this while…it’s just that PSLE is the worst 4-letter word ever in existence…for Singapore parents. Reason being at primary…parents still want to control… but come secondary…they are no longer capable of control for various reasons…so most kids would make their own choices…so parents forget "O" to JC is also balloting for tie-breaking.
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pirate:
Firstly, I fully agree with your point 1. (In fact, my girl whose score would get her into any school she wanted, also didn't choose the top 2 since they are not her dream school anyway.)
1. I do not agree with the implied view that there are only 2 good secondary schools in Singapore and going to every school other than those 2 is somehow a 'sacrifice' or a disgrace to the family name or somehow is necessarily a disadvantage.mum_sugoku:
We may mock parents who do that.. but, what if it's truly the case? You, too, acknowledge that it's not an impossible scenario, don't you?
We are talking about fairness here: one who has similar or even better academic performance (ability) than another being disadvantaged simply because of the way the system works, is it fair to him?
While I believe that such \"sway\" students will be exceptions rather than the norm, but does it mean that since only few will \"kenna\", it's ok to sacrifice them \"for the greater good\" (even out the spread)?
And for top and bottom tier students, the difference in points does not only mean the number of schools they get to choose from, but also mean one get to do IP curriculum or not, or one gets into normal stream or express. For borderline students, maybe it's truly better if they go through, respectively, the 'O' level route, or normal stream. But if the student belongs to the \"my 8 points is truelly better than your 5,6,or 7 point\" minority, it's just not fair to them lah.
(PS Thanks jetsetter for the information.
)
2. I do not agree that not getting into IP is likewise a 'sacrifice' or a disgrace to the family name or somehow is necessarily a disadvantage.
I come from the generation when there were more than 2 'top' schools. And back then, nobody really cared that much whether you were in RI or ACS or Chinese High or Nanyang, and nobody was bothered whether your school was 'topper' than mine. There was certainly no 'die die' also must get into RI. Our current PM went to Catholic High, not RI.
So, no. I don't agree with your 'fair'/'not fair' concern. In fact, I think the current obsession with this or that school must be better because it has a better cut-off point, and so die-die must get into it is an unhealthy attitude. I am happy that MOE is taking steps to correct it.
I do, however, concede that the express/NA/normal sorting may need some tweaking for those borderline cases, unless MOE's experience is that those borderline cases who currently manage to squeak through are struggling.
Secondly, by \"sacrifice\" I'm referring to the affected child only; who cares whether the parents feel shamed or disgraced or not! If we look at our IP scheme, from MOE website, it states that
https://www.moe.gov.sg/education/second ... -programme
[quote]While the GCE ‘O’ Levels serve as a valuable intermediate benchmark for the majority of our pupils, those who are academically strong can benefit from engaging in broader learning experiences during their Secondary and JC years. The Integrated Programmes (IP) will provide an integrated secondary and JC education where secondary school pupils can proceed to JC without taking the GCE ‘O’ Level Examinations. Schools offering IP will optimise the time freed up from preparing for the GCE ‘O’ Levels to stretch pupils and provide greater breadth in the academic and non-academic curriculum.[/quote]For someone who is fully capable and (should've been) fully qualified to take up the program, but being denied the chance simply because of the way the system work, is the \"sacrifice\" and \"unfairness\" I'm talking about.
I think I'm older than you since, during my time, PSLE scores were not even made known to us. But SAP scheme (so-called 'special stream') had already been introduced, with only the top 8% qualified for that 'special' stream. Back then, most of my cousins (2 of them same age as me), as well as myself, were doing fairly well in our respective primary schools. Came PSLE, my father kept telling me, if your cousins got into special stream and you didn't, you'll make me lose face! I was under tremendous pressure and really studied hard, and managed to go to 'special' stream. BTW my 2 cousins got in too. (Frankly, I really loathed the stress very much, and wouldn't want my kids to go through the same experience as I did.. Still, I had to warn them that their scores determine which school they can go; if they wanted more choices - you choose school, vs school choose you - they'd better do well.)
I am relating this \"old grandmother story\" of mine to tell you that comparing kids' \"achievement\" amongst parents had already existed long before your time, and regardless of how they change the system, people will still compare, hence pressure (by parents, on child) will always be there. And I don't think the change will reduce stress even in the long run, cause no matter how they compute and grade the results, ultimately, the result still determine the schools they get to go, which stream they get into, IP or not IP. Oh ya, even under new system, parents who want to compare will still compare \"my points better than your points, mine got 8, yours only got 10, hahaha\".
So, there's really no need to sacrifice a child's (not parent's) interest in the name of \"reducing stress' lah. -
floppy:
Sure, if you believe that all schools are good schools
Apart from the silly name, not so sure about a big difference.lee_yl:
Suddenly I realise, the balloting is not just for the sec school, it also decides which JC the top boy goes to. Let's be frank, there is a difference between RI(JC) and Eunoia JC! :siam:
Eunoia takes her feed from CHS, SCGS and SNGS - not too shabby IMHO.
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mum_sugoku:
Firstly, I fully agree with your point 1. (In fact, my girl whose score would get her into any school she wanted, also didn't choose the top 2 since they are not her dream school anyway.)
1. I do not agree with the implied view that there are only 2 good secondary schools in Singapore and going to every school other than those 2 is somehow a 'sacrifice' or a disgrace to the family name or somehow is necessarily a disadvantage.pirate:
[quote=\"mum_sugoku\"]
We may mock parents who do that.. but, what if it's truly the case? You, too, acknowledge that it's not an impossible scenario, don't you?
We are talking about fairness here: one who has similar or even better academic performance (ability) than another being disadvantaged simply because of the way the system works, is it fair to him?
While I believe that such \"sway\" students will be exceptions rather than the norm, but does it mean that since only few will \"kenna\", it's ok to sacrifice them \"for the greater good\" (even out the spread)?
And for top and bottom tier students, the difference in points does not only mean the number of schools they get to choose from, but also mean one get to do IP curriculum or not, or one gets into normal stream or express. For borderline students, maybe it's truly better if they go through, respectively, the 'O' level route, or normal stream. But if the student belongs to the \"my 8 points is truelly better than your 5,6,or 7 point\" minority, it's just not fair to them lah.
(PS Thanks jetsetter for the information. )
2. I do not agree that not getting into IP is likewise a 'sacrifice' or a disgrace to the family name or somehow is necessarily a disadvantage.
I come from the generation when there were more than 2 'top' schools. And back then, nobody really cared that much whether you were in RI or ACS or Chinese High or Nanyang, and nobody was bothered whether your school was 'topper' than mine. There was certainly no 'die die' also must get into RI. Our current PM went to Catholic High, not RI.
So, no. I don't agree with your 'fair'/'not fair' concern. In fact, I think the current obsession with this or that school must be better because it has a better cut-off point, and so die-die must get into it is an unhealthy attitude. I am happy that MOE is taking steps to correct it.
I do, however, concede that the express/NA/normal sorting may need some tweaking for those borderline cases, unless MOE's experience is that those borderline cases who currently manage to squeak through are struggling.
Secondly, by \"sacrifice\" I'm referring to the affected child only; who cares whether the parents feel shamed or disgraced or not! If we look at our IP scheme, from MOE website, it states that
https://www.moe.gov.sg/education/second ... -programme
[quote]While the GCE ‘O’ Levels serve as a valuable intermediate benchmark for the majority of our pupils, those who are academically strong can benefit from engaging in broader learning experiences during their Secondary and JC years. The Integrated Programmes (IP) will provide an integrated secondary and JC education where secondary school pupils can proceed to JC without taking the GCE ‘O’ Level Examinations. Schools offering IP will optimise the time freed up from preparing for the GCE ‘O’ Levels to stretch pupils and provide greater breadth in the academic and non-academic curriculum.[/quote]For someone who is fully capable and (should've been) fully qualified to take up the program, but being denied the chance simply because of the way the system work, is the \"sacrifice\" and \"unfairness\" I'm talking about.
I think I'm older than you since, during my time, PSLE scores were not even made known to us. But SAP scheme (so-called 'special stream') had already been introduced, with only the top 8% qualified for that 'special' stream. Back then, most of my cousins (2 of them same age as me), as well as myself, were doing fairly well in our respective primary schools. Came PSLE, my father kept telling me, if your cousins got into special stream and you didn't, you'll make me lose face! I was under tremendous pressure and really studied hard, and managed to go to 'special' stream. BTW my 2 cousins got in too. (Frankly, I really loathed the stress very much, and wouldn't want my kids to go through the same experience as I did.. Still, I had to warn them that their scores determine which school they can go; if they wanted more choices - you choose school, vs school choose you - they'd better do well.)
I am relating this \"old grandmother story\" of mine to tell you that comparing kids' \"achievement\" amongst parents had already existed long before your time, and regardless of how they change the system, people will still compare, hence pressure (by parents, on child) will always be there. And I don't think the change will reduce stress even in the long run, cause no matter how they compute and grade the results, ultimately, the result still determine the schools they get to go, which stream they get into, IP or not IP. Oh ya, even under new system, parents who want to compare will still compare \"my points better than your points, mine got 8, yours only got 10, hahaha\".
So, there's really no need to sacrifice a child's (not parent's) interest in the name of \"reducing stress' lah.[/quote]I feel your story is an inspirational one that you did not force your expectations on your kids and your daughter can freely choose whichever school she wants with your support. So why still worry about comparison? You have been an excellent parent and your success speaks for itself...there is really no need to compete so hard at 8 points or 10 points. Say what people want and ignore because you know what's best for your kids.....education is a journey....so is life. -
sushi88:
Balloting has been there all this while.....it's just that PSLE is the worst 4-letter word ever in existence...for Singapore parents. Reason being at primary...parents still want to control... but come secondary....they are no longer capable of control for various reasons...so most kids would make their own choices....so parents forget \"O\" to JC is also balloting for tie-breaking.
But this balloting does not guarantee that you will be posted to the next choice if there is a tie in the earlier choice. It all depends on supply and demand and if you are lucky you got your 1st choice. If unlucky you might be posted to a school far from your place.
This is the stress that those who had gone throughout balloting in p1 could identify. Balloting for a place in primary school is slightly better as you know your chance and could decide if you want to take it. Else go for the next nearest school.
But the new psle system, what do we know....only the points. -
mum_sugoku:
For someone who is fully capable and (should've been) fully qualified to take up the program, but being denied the chance simply because of the way the system work, is the \"sacrifice\" and \"unfairness\" I'm talking about.
[quote]While the GCE ‘O’ Levels serve as a valuable intermediate benchmark for the majority of our pupils, those who are academically strong can benefit from engaging in broader learning experiences during their Secondary and JC years. The Integrated Programmes (IP) will provide an integrated secondary and JC education where secondary school pupils can proceed to JC without taking the GCE ‘O’ Level Examinations. Schools offering IP will optimise the time freed up from preparing for the GCE ‘O’ Levels to stretch pupils and provide greater breadth in the academic and non-academic curriculum.
I think I'm older than you since, during my time, PSLE scores were not even made known to us. But SAP scheme (so-called 'special stream') had already been introduced, with only the top 8% qualified for that 'special' stream. Back then, most of my cousins (2 of them same age as me), as well as myself, were doing fairly well in our respective primary schools. Came PSLE, my father kept telling me, if your cousins got into special stream and you didn't, you'll make me lose face! I was under tremendous pressure and really studied hard, and managed to go to 'special' stream. BTW my 2 cousins got in too. (Frankly, I really loathed the stress very much, and wouldn't want my kids to go through the same experience as I did.. Still, I had to warn them that their scores determine which school they can go; if they wanted more choices - you choose school, vs school choose you - they'd better do well.)
[/quote]And yet some who the PSLE T-scores suggest to be 'fully capable' or 'fully qualified' for the program flunk out of it spectacularly. I seriously doubt that a T-score difference of say 5 would be an accurate predictor of whether the child is suitable for IP. So, T-score only gives a rough indication whether the IP program is suitable for the particular kid or not. For all we know, there are probably many other kids who do not qualify under the present T-score system, but who would be fully capable of benefiting under it. I am not particularly concerned because I think that PSLE is a very blunt instrument for sorting.
Actually, SAP and points for PSLE came out about the same time. At most 1 or 2 years apart. I know my elder brother time don't have SAP or scores. But this is really ancient history. Hee hee hee.
Luckily my parents never did the comparison thing on me, although I got one relative who scores more than me every single time. Then again, he ended up not getting into NUS medicine. Something about results too good. :razz:
Didn't really study for PSLE. Got more than a few big fat duck eggs for my Chinese around P3/P4, but still ended up by default in one of the SAP schools.
Ah.... the good old days when the time was better spent catching spiders, flipping bottle caps and coaching stranded kites from trees. :rotflmao: -
I came from the 1980s when the top scorer in class scored 421 in PSLE. He went to Chinese High. Many top scorers went to River Valley as well because it was the nearesr SAP school. Nobody really hard up and die die must go RI. Because if you do well in O level, you get to reshuffle to the top JC still. There were more top schools then! And yes St Nick was better than NY then…
So it is perhaps really the IP system that is creating all those stress at p6 level? -
lee_yl:
Sure, if you believe that all schools are good schools
Apart from the silly name, not so sure about a big difference.floppy:
[quote=\"lee_yl\"]
Suddenly I realise, the balloting is not just for the sec school, it also decides which JC the top boy goes to. Let's be frank, there is a difference between RI(JC) and Eunoia JC! :siam:
Eunoia takes her feed from CHS, SCGS and SNGS - not too shabby IMHO.[/quote]Yes, I also dont believe all schools are good schools and definitely there is differences between RI and Eunoia but will these differences impede the students from achieving their best performance and getting into university? I doubt so.
The gap will not be closed overnight but overtime and we have to start somewhere..... -
Melaka1986:
IP system is definitely one of the stress point because it leave so limited spaces for O level students. Just imagine you need 3 points to get in RI/HCI which put alot of pressure on the O level students and can be very demoralizing. Worst, all the top JCs are beginning to adopt this system after seeing the effect of IP has on their performance. This put more stress on parents and students \"chop\" a place at IP schools after PSLE....it is not wrong that PSLE is the most important exam as it not only decide the secondary school but also JC.I came from the 1980s when the top scorer in class scored 421 in PSLE. He went to Chinese High. Many top scorers went to River Valley as well because it was the nearesr SAP school. Nobody really hard up and die die must go RI. Because if you do well in O level, you get to reshuffle to the top JC still. There were more top schools then! And yes St Nick was better than NY then...
So it is perhaps really the IP system that is creating all those stress at p6 level? -
lee_yl:
Sure, if you believe that all schools are good schools
Apart from the silly name, not so sure about a big difference.floppy:
[quote=\"lee_yl\"]
Suddenly I realise, the balloting is not just for the sec school, it also decides which JC the top boy goes to. Let's be frank, there is a difference between RI(JC) and Eunoia JC! :siam:
Eunoia takes her feed from CHS, SCGS and SNGS - not too shabby IMHO.[/quote]They can believe it once they step into Mount Sinai campus. It's all in the mind... :evil:
OK on a more serious note...I think the chances of this top boy being mis-emplaced is very remote! He would've safely DSAed into NUSH, RI or HCI before he even finds out he is the top boy of his cohort!
Freak or fluke posting to EJC in lieu of RJC all boils down to mindset and perception, much like how one feels when carrying an Hermes bag vs a Prada bag; so long as EJC falls within the Big 10 IP (not O level) table by 2021, it's still palatable to the candidate lah. The P of EJC will certainly grin from ear to ear when many big fishes fall thru the occasional fishnet lobangs under the new system!
But I cannot say the same for those hovering at the borderline, in the bottom wider bands, i.e. N(A)/N(T) vs Express. The impact on candidates' fortunes and fates is far greater, so I hope MOE can clarify why the range is so big!
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