Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore?
-
phtthp\" post_id=\"2104213\" time=\"1680607240\" user_id=\"35251:
To answer your question, we may need to look back into the history of Malaya.
Veyron,
Can ask u a qn ?
In the first case, dont understand why u bother to start this kind of thread ? I am sure there are other types of topic(s) under the sun, more worthwhile. Spend your precious time, on more worthy causes.
Just ask yourself this basic, fundamental question.
You look around, u know, inside that white party government, so many of them hail from where ?
Hail from
RI, ACSI or ACS boys.
Even PM LHL himself, also from an IP-JC.
Do u think white party will ever throw away PSLE ?
Of course not.
If throw away PSLE, then whose precious sons can get into
( RI / ACSI / Hwa Chong / National JC ... etc ) ?
Just answering this qn alone, u will know the fate of PSLE.
You think, the parents who are MPs inside this white party, are readily (easily) contented with sending their precious sons, to attend simple, ordinary \"TT\" schools, without \"putting up an intense, intellectual fight\", at PSLE, 12 years old ? Those who opt to sit for PSLE, will get into the better renown Secondary schools, first.
If indeed one day, \"TT\" schools were to come true, then those who choose to opt out of PSLE,
will have to wait patiently
until
ALL those who had taken PSLE have gotten a slot into a Secondary school first, before can come their turn next, for processing. Of course, those who had sat for PSLE, will have priority, to pick their schools, first.
Any other remaining, residual places left behind, inside these TT schools, because they had never sit for PSLE before, will have to take Internal admission tests, in the event demand exceed Total number of vacancies available, in each of the TT school
According to records, 2 of the oldest school in Malaya is the Anglo-Chinese College in Malacca founded in 1820 by Robert Morrison (London Missionary Society) and Raffles Institute, founded in 1823 by Sir Thomas Stamford Raffles as a Boys only school. In subsequent years in the 1800s - 1900s, many mission and Chinese schools were established in Singapore as well. This is to say, long before we have Singapore, many of these \"IP\" schools were already well established. According to NLB record, PSLE was first introduced to Singapore during the British Colonial era in the early 1960s, which was modeled after UK Eleven+ standard exams. PSLE is actually not a Singapore system, simply a different name for the British system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleven-plus
Why do so many \"White Party\" member come from IP schools?
Founding members of Singapore such as Lee Kuan Yew Goh Keng Swee S. Rajaratnam Toh Chin Chye Hon Sui Sen Lim Kim San E.W. Barker Othman Wok etc all have one thing in common. They are all Rafflesian who graduated from RI or Raffles College. It is almost like modern Singapore is created by RI school projects started by Lee Kuan Yew Goh Keng Swee Toh Chin Chye. And in the eyes of the public, these people have already set the gold standards for politicians.
On the opposite side of the aisle, we can also find politicians like Jamus Lim Hazel Poa, Leong Mum Wai, David Marshall, Chiam See Tong, Chee Soon Juan, Sylvia Lim, Gerald Giam, Daniel Goh, Dennis Tan, Louis Chua, Leon Perera, Paul Tambyah etc, who are all from the \"IP\" schools.
I think the interest and merit of keeping PSLE is not to favor politicians or rich kids but to ensure our education system continues to produce quality output and does not become segmented and divided where rich and poor will go on different pathways. Human capital is one of Singapore's most important natural resources.
In UK most students will go through government-funded education, where students will be posted to the closest school from home where they will take SATS at age 7 and 11, not for sec school posting but serve as checkpoints, And the students will take their first exam at GCSEs (o-levels). This is almost like the TT school, but not necessarily in the same school compound, which means property prices around popular secondary schools will become expensive, and this will inevitably favor the rich. Why this could work in UK is because they are less Kiasu. Just like why circle traffic junction can function in UK but not in Singapore.
Alternatively, students may also choose to go for better equipped and higher level education grammar schools for secondary education, by taking an entrance exam in year 6. If they do well, then they can choose their preferred school. This is similar to PSLE (but not at the national level) applying for popular secondary schools. e.g. ACS (I), SJI, MGS. which mean standard of entrance exam will varies from school to school as well.
And there is also the option of private schools like King's College School, where one will find the best education in the country, (maybe similar to our IP schools), but out of reach to most UK citizens due to cost.
If MOE follows the UK system, I think 20% of Singapore students will be in private schools (Perhaps with many PR and foreigners), 80% will be stressing about the entrance exam to get into Grammar school, and eventually, 50% will be feeling they have been \"left\" behind.
As we can see from the UK system, there is no such thing as a level playing field or \"free lunch\". Those with more resources or those who choose to work harder for exams will get into better schools at an early age. At least here in Singapore, all our children are given an equal chance to try for \"King's Colledge School\" (aka IP schools) of Singapore without the need for rich parents or royal lineage and connections. -
Veyron\" post_id=\"2104244\" time=\"1680667731\" user_id=\"30663:
I think when you started this thread you have already decided that the answer is \"no\". Then you went one big round and came back to say \"no\".
As we can see from the UK system, there is no such thing as a level playing field or \"free lunch\". Those with more resources or those who choose to work harder for exams will get into better schools at an early age. At least here in Singapore, all our children are given an equal chance to try for \"King's Colledge School\" (aka IP schools) of Singapore without the need for rich parents or royal lineage and connections.
-
pirate\" post_id=\"2104270\" time=\"1680694304\" user_id=\"66252:
Ya man, I feel like I wasted x hours of my life contributing to a bogus discussion thread.
I think when you started this thread you have already decided that the answer is \"no\". Then you went one big round and came back to say \"no\".
Some wiser forummers have used their time on better pursuits. -
Whether Singapore can move towards TT education will depend on its merit vs the current PSLE system. A single thread or voice cannot alter or suppress its appeal if it is attractive.
What is very interesting about UK comprehensive system is that instead of making PSLE (aka 11+ exam) compulsory, they make it optional for students.
Supposedly if Singapore adopts the same system, PSLE will become optional instead of compulsory. Every student at P5 will be invited to take PSLE for enrolment to top-rank secondary schools that will only accept students that meet their respective PSLE COP. Students who didn’t make the cut or didn’t participate in PSLE will be posted to the "mainstream" secondary schools closest to home.
For high ability students whose parents can afford to pay more may choose more prestigious IP private schools such as MGS, ACS, SJI, RI, HCI, by taking competitive tests, DSA, and interviews. Individual schools will decide on the merit of each applicant before granting them admission.
If Singapore adopts the UK system, will it make Singapore education less stressful?
Maybe it will because there will be fewer students or parents dreaming about IP schools since they can’t afford them. If they don’t dream about it, they will not stress about it. While those who can afford it may find it easier to get in due to less competition, which leads to less stress. Suppose 20% of the cohort belongs to this group.
As for the remaining 80% I supposed 30% will get into top-rank schools while the remaining 50% will end up in the mainstream. For this reason, perhaps 20% of students may choose to skip PSLE, which leave just 60% of student competing for high-rank secondary schools. -
In the UK, wealthy families are pulling their children out of school for full-time home tutoring in order to get into prestigious schools.
[quote]As most children return to school, many affluent families are choosing to pull their children out of the mainstream education system altogether in favor of having a tutor at home – particularly as competition for places at the most prestigious schools heats up.
https://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/11/education-why-are-the-rich-pulling-their-kids-out-of-school.html[/quote]And the cost of hiring full-time tutor? around £35,000 ($54,400) a year.
Perhaps MOE should allow this in Singapore so that parents who wish their kids to get into IP schools can opt for home-schooling as 1:1 teaching could be more effective compared to 1:40 teacher-student ratio in government schools. And my guess is that students and parents from the top 20% income group will feel more confident and less stressed about PSLE as they can control how to groom their child to get ahead of others.
And this may also change the landscape of the tuition industry as more enrichment centers move their tuition centers operations to home tutoring. Leaving tuition centers more for \"mainstream\" students. -
Veyron\" post_id=\"2104293\" time=\"1680737173\" user_id=\"30663:
- MOE already allows parents to opt for homeschooling in the primary school years. I met one boy at an IP school open house who said he had been homeschooled so he couldn’t really answer my qn on the transition from pri to sec, does the teacher guide much less. But he was extremely competent & articulate in presenting and showcasing his impressive research project to me. I doubt he was heavily tutored.
In the UK, wealthy families are pulling their children out of school for full-time home tutoring in order to get into prestigious schools.
And the cost of hiring full-time tutor? around £35,000 ($54,400) a year.
Perhaps MOE should allow this in Singapore so that parents who wish their kids to get into IP schools can opt for home-schooling as 1:1 teaching could be more effective compared to 1:40 teacher-student ratio in government schools. And my guess is that students and parents from the top 20% income group will feel more confident and less stressed about PSLE as they can control how to groom their child to get ahead of others.
And this may also change the landscape of the tuition industry as more enrichment centers move their tuition centers operations to home tutoring. Leaving tuition centers more for \"mainstream\" students.
- why is MOE still happy to allow max 1:40 teacher:student ratio in government schools? Worst ratio among developed countries & still so proud of our education system?
- on TT system, parents want MOE to look into the feasibility of it. Is MOE’s solution to taichi back to parents to cough up own money for kid’s private education? Really? -
zac's mum\" post_id=\"2104295\" time=\"1680737890\" user_id=\"53606:[quote=\"zac's mum\" post_id=2104295 time=1680737890 user_id=53606]
According to what I read, there are around 50 students per level doing homeschooling and it's done on a case-by-case basis for different reasons.
- MOE already allows parents to opt for homeschooling in the primary school years. I met one boy at an IP school open house who said he had been homeschooled so he couldn’t really answer my qn on the transition from pri to sec, does the teacher guide much less. But he was extremely competent & articulate in presenting and showcasing his impressive research project to me. I doubt he was heavily tutored.
- why is MOE still happy to allow max 1:40 teacher:student ratio in government schools? Worst ratio among developed countries & still so proud of our education system?
- on TT system, parents want MOE to look into the feasibility of it. Is MOE’s solution to taichi back to parents to cough up own money for kid’s private education? Really?[/quote]
I don't think MOE permits students to pull a child out during P6 to do homeschooling just to ace exams.
[quote]Exemption from compulsory education
Children who are required to undergo compulsory education must attend a national primary school regularly unless they have been granted an exemption. Find out about the different types of exemptions.
https://www.moe.gov.sg/primary/compulsory-education/exemptions[/quote]Under the UK schools system, the class size is ranked
Comprehensive Schools > Grammar School > Private Schools
In terms of facilities and quality education
Private Schools > Grammar School > Comprehensive Schools
Singapore may have a bigger class size, but at least, it's the about same for all primary and secondary schools, which means fairness instead of favoring the smarter or richer kids. (with the exception of GEP classes from P4 to P6).
Singapore education is very closely linked to the UK system since the time of Malaya in the 1800s. So there is no reason to believe that MOE has not considered TT system similar to comprehensive schools in the UK or question why UK still needs to have Grammar Schools and Private Schools instead of just standard comprehensive schools for everyone. Very likely between the government, they have also studied the outcome of students from different pathways.
On the surface, the UK system may seem more advanced and holistic as it doesn't make PSLE (11+) compulsory however in reality the system actually requires parents and students to sort themselves by deciding on which pathway depending on their economic and social circumstances. And different pathways will offer different teaching programs and syllabus catering to the academic ability of students instead of standardized programs for all.
For the UK, I think there is merit to having different teaching programs because besides lawyers bankers doctors, IT engineers, middle and senior management etc UK still requires the domestic workforce with trade and practical skills. And such skills are often covered in comprehensive schools program to allow students who are not academically inclined to pick up skills that are required when they join the workforce.
So lets us not make the assumption that MOE has not studied the TT system. -
Chance upon this interesting article on how selective schools such as Grammar Schools in UK favor the rich.
Grammar schools benefit rich, says OECD
https://www.bbc.com/news/education-37364697
[quote]Entrance tests
\"But what happens in most European systems is that academic selection becomes social selection.
\"Schools are very good at selecting students by their social background, but they're not very good at selecting students by their academic potential.\"
When admission to school was based on a one-off test, he said, \"wealthy parents will find a way through it\".
But there were Asian school systems, such as Singapore and Hong Kong, that seemed to be more effective in how they selected pupils.
\"They are selective, but they seem to be very good at figuring out how good students really are,\" said Mr Schleicher.
But focusing on grammars and selection was not the way to raise standards.
\"I think the importance of grammar schools is dramatically overplayed,\" he said.
And there should be more investment for \"more schools that are more demanding and more rigorous\".[/quote]After reading this article, I am now more convinced that MOE has done a very good job in molding our education system, providing equal opportunity and leveling the playing field, and making sure our most prestigious schools in Singapore are made available for people from all walks of life, not just the wealthy.
In a certain way, we can say that every secondary school in Singapore is at least similar to Grammar school, where all students are provided with proper education to help them continue further education after o-level.
Guess compulsory PSLE is not that bad after all? -
Grammar schools or selective schools have been around since the 16 century and it was only in the 1940s that the UK introduced the comprehensive system where students are not required to take 11+ (akin to Singapore PSLE) to promote to secondary schools.
After more than 60 years, the UK is still dealing with the controversies surrounding Grammar Schools and inequality in their education system. (we are not even talking about private schools).
Here is why
1) No escape from tuition
Under the comprehensive system, PSLE will become optional, which means primary schools will not prepare students for PSLE as part of their standard teaching program. For students who decide to take PSLE for Grammar Schools admission will engage private tutors for PSLE preparation. Which mean, parents with means will take advantage of the system to get into more prestigious grammar schools through tuitions
2) Location location
Under the comprehensive system, students will be posted to a secondary school based on their address. Supposed Singapore introduces a similar system, different sec schools will have a different catchment of students. This means schools located in the prime district will likely produce more outstanding results due to different social backgrounds.
And this will inevitably benefit students from a more well-to-do family
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/mar/01/england-poorer-pupils-face-exclusion-from-top-state-schools-study
3) Social inequality
Supporters of selective grammar schools in UK argue that Grammar schools will allow bright children, including those from disadvantaged backgrounds, to make the most of their talents. And this is similar to Singapore, if we don't have PSLE, it is likely that most students from low-income families will never can the chance to study in our prestigious IP schools.
4) Disparity in education outcome.
It is argued that grammar schools can deliver good results because teachers can push pupils harder, knowing that only the most able students are in the classroom. For instance, the percentage of grammar school pupils achieving a 9-5 pass in English and maths in 2018 was 92.9% compared with 44.1% of non-selective schools.
This is likely to be the case for Singapore between TT and PSLE route..
5) Earning inequality/Employability
Studies have shown there is possible earning inequality between comprehensive and grammar systems. This is to say employers may prefer students from 'grammar' schools over comprehensive.
Having considered the outcome of UK education system, will Singapore parents sign up for TT education if it's made available?
Will TT system level the playing field and eradicate Singapore's tuition culture? -
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login