Can through-train school work in kiasu Singapore?
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sushi88\" post_id=\"2104138\" time=\"1680524999\" user_id=\"100857:
If your hypothesis on TT and affiliation helping students who wish to join the \"rat race\" later to be better equipped for exams (\"race\") at S4 is true, then I would expect students' academic standards or outcomes at ACS and ACS(I) to converge at S4 and produce similarly good O-Level results. Unfortunately, that is far from the truth and all ACS parents know that, and that is why ACS parents also need to stress over PSLE. Based on my earlier estimate, I would say around 50% of ACS primary students end up in ACS(I) Express and IB programs with PSLE scores ranging from AL4 to AL13.
I would think you read every post more intently than others since you make this thread.
Parents are only one dimension, there are other reasons, obviously you have overlooked the post it was stated. And even if parents are the reason, there are varying situations how they contribute, not just unrealistic expectations and wants.
Why would I not believe you about how severe or competitive the tuition situation is for those who want to race in the affiliated group? Of course I believe. Also, where is the real stress for this group? Can't get into IP/IB can still get into the affiliated 'O' track. You are the one not believing :lol: there could be a group of kids who do not want to race but are being dragged into this race when they are not ready and not willing. I know some of these kids, just not sure how many nationally.
172/510 = 34% (AL7-AL13) - Express
82/510 = 16% AL4-AL7 - IP
What does this show? 50% of ACS students are not happy because they got dragged into the race at ACS(I)?
And if I may ask, so what happens if the same group of students still doesn't wish to join the \"race\" at O-Level?
In a race, there is only 1 winner, and that is not the case for education. So please don't stress yourself up by calling it a race. -
Somehow I find our discussion about TT or skipping PSLE is very similar to a classic Catch-22 situation
1) At the moment, parents are stressed because of PSLE high stake exam
2) TT without PSLE, parents are stressed because P1 enrollment will be high stake, no exit option for secondary schools posting, and worry about no checkpoint for students before hitting O-Level
3) Optional opt-out of PSLE, parents stressed because secondary school options will be limited, worrying about making the wrong decision and possibly lowering AL COP standard benefiting PSLE students
So back to the question, Can TT school work in Singapore?
Yes, but no thanks. -
There are ways to make it work. Unfortunately the proactive suggestions which have been put forth by several parties (not just on this forum) have simply been shot down by naysayers and parties who have a vested interest in maintaining status quo.
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Veyron\" post_id=\"2104172\" time=\"1680588303\" user_id=\"30663:
Veyron,
Somehow I find our discussion about TT or skipping PSLE is very similar to a classic Catch-22 situation
1) At the moment, parents are stressed because of PSLE high stake exam
2) TT without PSLE, parents are stressed because P1 enrollment will be high stake, no exit option for secondary schools posting, and worry about no checkpoint for students before hitting O-Level
3) Optional opt-out of PSLE, parents stressed because secondary school options will be limited, worrying about making the wrong decision and possibly lowering AL COP standard benefiting PSLE students
So back to the question, Can TT school work in Singapore?
Yes, but no thanks.
Can ask u a qn ?
In the first case, dont understand why u bother to start this kind of thread ? I am sure there are other types of topic(s) under the sun, more worthwhile. In life, many things demand your attention & time.
Veyron,
can see that u are a very intelligent, hardworking, diligent & meticulous person. From the way u answered, not just this thread, but from other thread as well, can tell your character. Ignore this thread. Forget that u are this thread starter.
Spend your precious, valuable time, on worthy causes.
Just ask yourself this basic, fundamental question.
You look around, u know, inside that white party ruling government, so many of them hail from where ?
Hail from
RI, ACSI or ACS boys.
Even PM LHL himself, also from an IP-JC.
Do u think white ruling party will ever throw away PSLE ?
Of course not.
If throw away PSLE, then whose precious sons of these high powered MPs can get into
( RI / ACSI / Hwa Chong / National JC ... etc ) ?
Just answering this qn alone, u will know the fate of PSLE.
You think, the parents who are MPs inside this white party, are simply contented with sending their precious sons, to attend simple, ordinary \"TT\" schools, without \"putting up an intense, intellectual fight\", at PSLE, 12 years old ? The answer, is obvious.
If indeed one day, \"TT\" schools were to come true, then those who choose to opt out of PSLE,
will have to wait patiently lor
until
ALL students who had taken PSLE have gotten a slot into a Secondary school first, before can come their turn next, for processing. Priority, naturally will be given to those who had sat for PSLE.
Any other left behind, remaining, residual places, inside these TT schools, because they had never sit for PSLE before, will have to take Internal admission tests,
in the event
demand exceed Total number of vacancies available, in each of the TT school. Because
amongst TT schools, some are still better than others.
Unless ...
we are talking about those very un-popular, un-desirable TT neighbourhood schools, where Secondary school students' enrolment Is so low, so poor !
No P6 student want to go there to study. You hear the name of this TT school, students start to \"siam\", run far away. Until MOE no choice, have to step in to intervene, and start merging these un-popular TT schools. Then Yes, plenty of vacancies available, inside there. Don't bother to conduct any admission test, at all. Everyone is most welcome to join, these unwanted TT schools. -
phtthp\" post_id=\"2104213\" time=\"1680607240\" user_id=\"35251:
To answer your question, we may need to look back into the history of Malaya.
Veyron,
Can ask u a qn ?
In the first case, dont understand why u bother to start this kind of thread ? I am sure there are other types of topic(s) under the sun, more worthwhile. Spend your precious time, on more worthy causes.
Just ask yourself this basic, fundamental question.
You look around, u know, inside that white party government, so many of them hail from where ?
Hail from
RI, ACSI or ACS boys.
Even PM LHL himself, also from an IP-JC.
Do u think white party will ever throw away PSLE ?
Of course not.
If throw away PSLE, then whose precious sons can get into
( RI / ACSI / Hwa Chong / National JC ... etc ) ?
Just answering this qn alone, u will know the fate of PSLE.
You think, the parents who are MPs inside this white party, are readily (easily) contented with sending their precious sons, to attend simple, ordinary \"TT\" schools, without \"putting up an intense, intellectual fight\", at PSLE, 12 years old ? Those who opt to sit for PSLE, will get into the better renown Secondary schools, first.
If indeed one day, \"TT\" schools were to come true, then those who choose to opt out of PSLE,
will have to wait patiently
until
ALL those who had taken PSLE have gotten a slot into a Secondary school first, before can come their turn next, for processing. Of course, those who had sat for PSLE, will have priority, to pick their schools, first.
Any other remaining, residual places left behind, inside these TT schools, because they had never sit for PSLE before, will have to take Internal admission tests, in the event demand exceed Total number of vacancies available, in each of the TT school
According to records, 2 of the oldest school in Malaya is the Anglo-Chinese College in Malacca founded in 1820 by Robert Morrison (London Missionary Society) and Raffles Institute, founded in 1823 by Sir Thomas Stamford Raffles as a Boys only school. In subsequent years in the 1800s - 1900s, many mission and Chinese schools were established in Singapore as well. This is to say, long before we have Singapore, many of these \"IP\" schools were already well established. According to NLB record, PSLE was first introduced to Singapore during the British Colonial era in the early 1960s, which was modeled after UK Eleven+ standard exams. PSLE is actually not a Singapore system, simply a different name for the British system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleven-plus
Why do so many \"White Party\" member come from IP schools?
Founding members of Singapore such as Lee Kuan Yew Goh Keng Swee S. Rajaratnam Toh Chin Chye Hon Sui Sen Lim Kim San E.W. Barker Othman Wok etc all have one thing in common. They are all Rafflesian who graduated from RI or Raffles College. It is almost like modern Singapore is created by RI school projects started by Lee Kuan Yew Goh Keng Swee Toh Chin Chye. And in the eyes of the public, these people have already set the gold standards for politicians.
On the opposite side of the aisle, we can also find politicians like Jamus Lim Hazel Poa, Leong Mum Wai, David Marshall, Chiam See Tong, Chee Soon Juan, Sylvia Lim, Gerald Giam, Daniel Goh, Dennis Tan, Louis Chua, Leon Perera, Paul Tambyah etc, who are all from the \"IP\" schools.
I think the interest and merit of keeping PSLE is not to favor politicians or rich kids but to ensure our education system continues to produce quality output and does not become segmented and divided where rich and poor will go on different pathways. Human capital is one of Singapore's most important natural resources.
In UK most students will go through government-funded education, where students will be posted to the closest school from home where they will take SATS at age 7 and 11, not for sec school posting but serve as checkpoints, And the students will take their first exam at GCSEs (o-levels). This is almost like the TT school, but not necessarily in the same school compound, which means property prices around popular secondary schools will become expensive, and this will inevitably favor the rich. Why this could work in UK is because they are less Kiasu. Just like why circle traffic junction can function in UK but not in Singapore.
Alternatively, students may also choose to go for better equipped and higher level education grammar schools for secondary education, by taking an entrance exam in year 6. If they do well, then they can choose their preferred school. This is similar to PSLE (but not at the national level) applying for popular secondary schools. e.g. ACS (I), SJI, MGS. which mean standard of entrance exam will varies from school to school as well.
And there is also the option of private schools like King's College School, where one will find the best education in the country, (maybe similar to our IP schools), but out of reach to most UK citizens due to cost.
If MOE follows the UK system, I think 20% of Singapore students will be in private schools (Perhaps with many PR and foreigners), 80% will be stressing about the entrance exam to get into Grammar school, and eventually, 50% will be feeling they have been \"left\" behind.
As we can see from the UK system, there is no such thing as a level playing field or \"free lunch\". Those with more resources or those who choose to work harder for exams will get into better schools at an early age. At least here in Singapore, all our children are given an equal chance to try for \"King's Colledge School\" (aka IP schools) of Singapore without the need for rich parents or royal lineage and connections. -
Veyron\" post_id=\"2104244\" time=\"1680667731\" user_id=\"30663:
I think when you started this thread you have already decided that the answer is \"no\". Then you went one big round and came back to say \"no\".
As we can see from the UK system, there is no such thing as a level playing field or \"free lunch\". Those with more resources or those who choose to work harder for exams will get into better schools at an early age. At least here in Singapore, all our children are given an equal chance to try for \"King's Colledge School\" (aka IP schools) of Singapore without the need for rich parents or royal lineage and connections.
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pirate\" post_id=\"2104270\" time=\"1680694304\" user_id=\"66252:
Ya man, I feel like I wasted x hours of my life contributing to a bogus discussion thread.
I think when you started this thread you have already decided that the answer is \"no\". Then you went one big round and came back to say \"no\".
Some wiser forummers have used their time on better pursuits. -
Whether Singapore can move towards TT education will depend on its merit vs the current PSLE system. A single thread or voice cannot alter or suppress its appeal if it is attractive.
What is very interesting about UK comprehensive system is that instead of making PSLE (aka 11+ exam) compulsory, they make it optional for students.
Supposedly if Singapore adopts the same system, PSLE will become optional instead of compulsory. Every student at P5 will be invited to take PSLE for enrolment to top-rank secondary schools that will only accept students that meet their respective PSLE COP. Students who didn’t make the cut or didn’t participate in PSLE will be posted to the "mainstream" secondary schools closest to home.
For high ability students whose parents can afford to pay more may choose more prestigious IP private schools such as MGS, ACS, SJI, RI, HCI, by taking competitive tests, DSA, and interviews. Individual schools will decide on the merit of each applicant before granting them admission.
If Singapore adopts the UK system, will it make Singapore education less stressful?
Maybe it will because there will be fewer students or parents dreaming about IP schools since they can’t afford them. If they don’t dream about it, they will not stress about it. While those who can afford it may find it easier to get in due to less competition, which leads to less stress. Suppose 20% of the cohort belongs to this group.
As for the remaining 80% I supposed 30% will get into top-rank schools while the remaining 50% will end up in the mainstream. For this reason, perhaps 20% of students may choose to skip PSLE, which leave just 60% of student competing for high-rank secondary schools. -
In the UK, wealthy families are pulling their children out of school for full-time home tutoring in order to get into prestigious schools.
[quote]As most children return to school, many affluent families are choosing to pull their children out of the mainstream education system altogether in favor of having a tutor at home – particularly as competition for places at the most prestigious schools heats up.
https://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/11/education-why-are-the-rich-pulling-their-kids-out-of-school.html[/quote]And the cost of hiring full-time tutor? around £35,000 ($54,400) a year.
Perhaps MOE should allow this in Singapore so that parents who wish their kids to get into IP schools can opt for home-schooling as 1:1 teaching could be more effective compared to 1:40 teacher-student ratio in government schools. And my guess is that students and parents from the top 20% income group will feel more confident and less stressed about PSLE as they can control how to groom their child to get ahead of others.
And this may also change the landscape of the tuition industry as more enrichment centers move their tuition centers operations to home tutoring. Leaving tuition centers more for \"mainstream\" students. -
Veyron\" post_id=\"2104293\" time=\"1680737173\" user_id=\"30663:
- MOE already allows parents to opt for homeschooling in the primary school years. I met one boy at an IP school open house who said he had been homeschooled so he couldn’t really answer my qn on the transition from pri to sec, does the teacher guide much less. But he was extremely competent & articulate in presenting and showcasing his impressive research project to me. I doubt he was heavily tutored.
In the UK, wealthy families are pulling their children out of school for full-time home tutoring in order to get into prestigious schools.
And the cost of hiring full-time tutor? around £35,000 ($54,400) a year.
Perhaps MOE should allow this in Singapore so that parents who wish their kids to get into IP schools can opt for home-schooling as 1:1 teaching could be more effective compared to 1:40 teacher-student ratio in government schools. And my guess is that students and parents from the top 20% income group will feel more confident and less stressed about PSLE as they can control how to groom their child to get ahead of others.
And this may also change the landscape of the tuition industry as more enrichment centers move their tuition centers operations to home tutoring. Leaving tuition centers more for \"mainstream\" students.
- why is MOE still happy to allow max 1:40 teacher:student ratio in government schools? Worst ratio among developed countries & still so proud of our education system?
- on TT system, parents want MOE to look into the feasibility of it. Is MOE’s solution to taichi back to parents to cough up own money for kid’s private education? Really?
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