Any parents of gifted children here ?
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wwcookie:
I realized that I do sound confusing
Sorry tamarind, no offense but I find your stand confusing. When you say that GEP is not necessary, you sound like you don't agree to any form of differentiated learning tailored to the abilities of the students, yet you want to enrol your daughter in West Grove which offers such a program. But not all schools offer these kinds of programs so what happens to those kids who are in these schools? Every kid should be valued and I truly believe that these kids deserve to get an education that is tailored for their different needs.
Tamarind, maybe you are trying to say that some kind of differentiated learning is necessary but should be low profile and unobtrusive, unlike the current GEP program?
I did not put my girl into West Grove because I knew they have those programs. In fact I only read about it in the newspaper a few days ago. I have started PV at the school more than 1 month ago, at that point of time I thought that they did not have any such program, but that is perfectly fine for me. My plan is to let her follow the normal curriculum, then teach her interesting and useful things at home, for example, computer programming and robotics. More importantly, let her have more time to do what she likes, which is drawing.
From what I understand, what West Grove is offering, is not differentiated learning. All kids of different abilities follow the same curriculum every day. But high ability(HA) kids have extra lessons outside of the normal curriculum. It is like ECA. I find this unobtrusive compared to the GEP.
I feel that if extra lessons are offered, we always have a choice. My girl can choose to learn advanced maths, or research, or nothing at all. Unlike the GEP, there is no choice but to do everything that is required in the program. Like Japanese Haiku ? If a child loves to draw, will the GEP allow her to draw all day ?
According to the article :
West Grove Primary in Jurong West serves as the enrichment centre for high-ability pupils across the schools in the area.
Once a week, a bus picks pupils up for their maths classes, run by trainers recommended by the Education Ministry's Gifted Education Branch. Through the selection tests for the GEP in Primary 3, the branch identified these pupils as high-ability achievers.
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gifted:
No problem. I enjoy the discussion here, and I am happy that the thread has grown to 9 pages ! It is good to see different opinions here. While I am quick to assert my opinions, I also totally respect other people's opinions.
Please dun get offended. If you have kids in the P2 or higher level, you will properly know after finishing P1, the top 5% will be single out and put in the top class and they are also mixed with children with \"high ability\" just like themselve only. Is only the recent Banding system allow them to mix. But how many of this \"lower ability\" student get the chance??? No one know.
I just want stressed that the GEP kids are just normal kids like yours and mine. Dun label them like some people use to label children from EM3.
When I was in primary school, they also put the best students in A class. I was in the best class in RGS more than 20 years ago. We were grouped based on results. No parents back then were pressurizing the kids to get into the best class. The kids were simply grouped according to their ability. There were 13 classes, our principal purposely ordered the best class number 13, so outsiders would think we were the last(worst) class. All classes had the same teachers who teach the same syllabus. Students in the best class simply learn faster, finish their work faster, and need a lot less help. In fact, our Physics teacher was so bad, nobody could understand what he was teaching. But every girl in the class till scored A1 for Physics. We simply learn on our own. I haven't heard of any girl who had tuition teacher back then.
Is it true that the GEP always have better teachers ? I worked as a relief teacher at RGS for about 2 weeks, after I graduated from university. I taught Physics to the gifted class. The girls told me how bad their Physics teacher was, and some even asked me to stay and teach them.
Actually I only have problems with the way the GEP is implemented, not with the kids. -
Hi Tamarind,
The GEP not necessary have better teacher. They only have teachers that are specially trained to handle them. They are already very smart, learning very fast and most of them already know even before the teacher teaches them. They also have relief teacher which allow them to do their own things and later play catch up by supplmentary lesson.
Before my girl opt for the programe, I also think why it is necessary to have GEP. When you have your so called special child enrol in a just normal neighbourhood school, the child will be bored. Not in P1 or P2, but P3. Imagine only less than 10 children go through the first round. She will complain to you that the teacher is slow in teaching. Why can't she has more freedom to do whatever she likes. Why her friends just dun understand her? She has to lower herself to be on par with them which make her very unhappy.
With the GEP, she is allow to learn at a much faster pace and learn things that she always long for. But there are some other problems too. Actually, sometime I find that the GEP students are quite relax. They dun really have a lots of worksheets to do and some task are given amples time to do research. With that they can learn more outside the classroom and time management. Trust me, GEP isn't that bad. The programe have improved a lot. They have cater to the need of the child and not like the drilling method when you and I were in school.
Make sure they get to mix around with children of all level and always remain them that they are no different from anyone of them. If you dun tell everyone that she is from the GEP, then no one will know rite. :lol: -
gifted:
Hi Tamarind,
The GEP not necessary have better teacher. They only have teachers that are specially trained to handle them. They are already very smart, learning very fast and most of them already know even before the teacher teaches them. They also have relief teacher which allow them to do their own things and later play catch up by supplmentary lesson.
Before my girl opt for the programe, I also think why it is necessary to have GEP. When you have your so called special child enrol in a just normal neighbourhood school, the child will be bored. Not in P1 or P2, but P3. Imagine only less than 10 children go through the first round. She will complain to you that the teacher is slow in teaching. Why can't she has more freedom to do whatever she likes. Why her friends just dun understand her? She has to lower herself to be on par with them which make her very unhappy.
With the GEP, she is allow to learn at a much faster pace and learn things that she always long for. But there are some other problems too. Actually, sometime I find that the GEP students are quite relax. They dun really have a lots of worksheets to do and some task are given amples time to do research. With that they can learn more outside the classroom and time management. Trust me, GEP isn't that bad. The programe have improved a lot. They have cater to the need of the child and not like the drilling method when you and I were in school.
Make sure they get to mix around with children of all level and always remain them that they are no different from anyone of them. If you dun tell everyone that she is from the GEP, then no one will know rite. :lol:
gifted,
Thanks for sharing more insight into the program. I really appreciate it
Did your girl start out in a neighbourhood school, and move to a school with the GEP program ?
We don't have kids of the same age in the neighbourhood, so my girl's only chance to socialize is in class. I am not sure whether she will be happier in a class of kids of the same ability as her. She seems to be very happy now in her K1 class of kids with a wide range of abilities. We tell her that there is always something she can learn from other people. I think her teacher handles the kids pretty well. The teacher will ask her to teach other kids to read. When she finishes her work fast, the teacher will give her some paper and let her draw, since she loves drawing. -
Yes, she started off in a neigbourhood school and really enjoyed her school life there. She still keeps her old friends and plays with them as and when they met at the park. Her childcare teacher made her the little teacher during her younger days in the childcare and in P1. Actually, she is not really happier in the GEP class. She said she still prefer her old school and friends as they are more sincere and the GEP kids only be friend to you with motive which I find that my girl has grow up too fast. I always tell her that's the real world she is going to face when she grow up and she has to learn the basic trust.
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I’ve been following this thread with much interest. My second daughter is 3 this year. On the second day after giving birth and was discharged from the hospital, I reached home and placed her on her tummy and to my utter amazement, she lifted up her head, turned left, right and left again before flopping down her head on the bed again. Thereafter, she would cry her lungs out to lift up her head whenever I placed her on her tummy during the first month. Subsequently, her development milestone for gross motor skill was something like on the dot. She would perform whatever that was stated in books/charts right at the beginning or just slightly earlier of the stated month. Well, she wasn’t those advanced kids that I’ve heard who could walk in 6 months!
As a baby, she would examine her toys in detail and would always turn her toys around to see what’s behind. Her fine motor skill was very good. She could speak in complete sentences just before she turned 2. She could remember things and grasps concepts easily with few repetitions. When others see her in action, they thought she’s 1-2 years beyond her actual age, although with little hair, she looks like a baby. I must confess that I’m a busy and lazy mum, but I’ll try to stimulate her whenever I remember or if I have the time (but not much and not consistent at all!). Still, I don’t think she’s gifted. I think she’s just a bright child who learns things fast. For one, she didn’t classify mammals when I was teaching my elder child!
I see parents that are concerned about identifying giftedness at an early age so children would not feel bored or disrupt the class or lose interest in learning…or we want to maximise a child’s potential so they could (hopefully) achieve greater things in life at an earlier age…
I’m just wondering out loud…I’m sure there are gifted children in China and I understand from friends who have stayed there for some years that their classrooms contain 60 students with one teacher. However, the discipline is good and everyone seems eager to learn and participate in class and I don’t think they segregate gifted children. However, gifted children there still seem to strive and perhaps come up tops? Is it a cultural thing? How do they do it? Is it really necessary to segregate them or if not, their giftedness will die off?? I know China identifies top talents in the arts and sports to be trained intensively in special schools, but didn’t hear of academic gifted schools though… -
Tamarind says: [quote]If the system can properly identify gifted kids at a young age, then at least the kids can have teachers who are trained to handle them in a sensitive and understanding manner. But the tough part is how to identify them. Some kids may even refused to be tested.[/quote]
I agree that the teachers should be equipped to handle the kids in a sensitive & understanding manner. On testing for giftedness, this can be done by observations by the teacher. Some of the gifted kids really sticks out from the crowd.
Well my son survive his PCF & I am sure he will survive in his new school. So far the past episode with the teacher did not break his spirit although at one point I know he was deeply hurt. So, it does not matter if identification is done earlier or later. I was hoping that identifying early, will release a bit of my stress managing his needs. But as Gifted explained, it is not necessarily so.
Sunflower, just to clarify. My son is able to define mammal just like he is quoting from a dictionary. He knows factual data because he remembers what he reads as leisure. I don't teach my daughter science as she has her tuition teacher to guide her. -
sunflower:
Sunflower,I’ve been following this thread with much interest. My second daughter is 3 this year. On the second day after giving birth and was discharged from the hospital, I reached home and placed her on her tummy and to my utter amazement, she lifted up her head, turned left, right and left again before flopping down her head on the bed again. Thereafter, she would cry her lungs out to lift up her head whenever I placed her on her tummy during the first month. Subsequently, her development milestone for gross motor skill was something like on the dot. She would perform whatever that was stated in books/charts right at the beginning or just slightly earlier of the stated month. Well, she wasn’t those advanced kids that I’ve heard who could walk in 6 months!
As a baby, she would examine her toys in detail and would always turn her toys around to see what’s behind. Her fine motor skill was very good. She could speak in complete sentences just before she turned 2. She could remember things and grasps concepts easily with few repetitions. When others see her in action, they thought she’s 1-2 years beyond her actual age, although with little hair, she looks like a baby. I must confess that I’m a busy and lazy mum, but I’ll try to stimulate her whenever I remember or if I have the time (but not much and not consistent at all!). Still, I don’t think she’s gifted. I think she’s just a bright child who learns things fast. For one, she didn’t classify mammals when I was teaching my elder child!
I see parents that are concerned about identifying giftedness at an early age so children would not feel bored or disrupt the class or lose interest in learning…or we want to maximise a child’s potential so they could (hopefully) achieve greater things in life at an earlier age…
I’m just wondering out loud…I’m sure there are gifted children in China and I understand from friends who have stayed there for some years that their classrooms contain 60 students with one teacher. However, the discipline is good and everyone seems eager to learn and participate in class and I don’t think they segregate gifted children. However, gifted children there still seem to strive and perhaps come up tops? Is it a cultural thing? How do they do it? Is it really necessary to segregate them or if not, their giftedness will die off?? I know China identifies top talents in the arts and sports to be trained intensively in special schools, but didn’t hear of academic gifted schools though…
I like your post. I think you have written about some very good points.
I have also heard that there is no gifted education in China. And I believe that their students are more motivated than Singaporean students.
For those who can understand Chinese, read this very interesting article comparing the education system in Singapore and China.
http://www.zaobao.com.sg/special/forum/pages5/forum_lx071205c.html
In China, they don't even rank students in primary school.
中国小学不许排名次，避免给孩子太大压力。也不会因为成绩不同而换班，大家都上同样的内容。第一次淘汰是在6年级小学毕业。
This is something that I would like to see in Singapore.
Your question:
Is it really necessary to segregate them or if not, their giftedness will die off??
If we take China as an example, then the answer to the above question is no.
I used to be very good in maths when I was in primary school. I was always one step ahead of the teacher. I would read the text book and did the exercises before she finished explaining. I finished my work very quickly, and then I would help other weaker students to do their work. I really enjoyed helping them. My classmates preferred to ask me rather than ask the teacher. I never felt bored or lost interest.
Well I am not gifted. So I do not completely understand how the minds of other gifted children work. May be they already had tuition at home, and already knew everything in the subject very well. But it will still do them a lot of good if they go about helping other students. -
sunflower:
Hi Sunflower,
I’m just wondering out loud…I’m sure there are gifted children in China and I understand from friends who have stayed there for some years that their classrooms contain 60 students with one teacher. However, the discipline is good and everyone seems eager to learn and participate in class and I don’t think they segregate gifted children. However, gifted children there still seem to strive and perhaps come up tops? Is it a cultural thing? How do they do it? Is it really necessary to segregate them or if not, their giftedness will die off?? I know China identifies top talents in the arts and sports to be trained intensively in special schools, but didn’t hear of academic gifted schools though…
I found some articles in the archives of the MOE that relate directly to your question.
These are extremely interesting articles and I encourage anyone interested in understanding more to read. This is from the bureacrats' standpoint, but it brings me cheer to realize the thought and consideration our government has put into the entire educational programme, of which the GEP is an important part. I now know the extent and depth of planning that have gone into the planning of the GEP, which will benefit the long term well-being of our society. [Mind you, I don't quite agree - and this is a personal opinion of course- with how individual schools carry out this mandate, but that's another can of worms altogether. I don't want to digress here].
http://www.moe.gov.sg/media/speeches/2004/sp20040603.htm
http://www.moe.gov.sg/media/speeches/2002/sp05122002.htm
I'm quoting some paras that relate directly to your musings:
\"In China, the education of the gifted is catered to largely within the top mainstream schools. In middle schools affiliated to universities (usually the teaching universities), academic staff are deployed to teach gifted students in smaller, experimental classes. Another model, Beijing No 8 Middle School, which I visited last year, provides an accelerated programme of learning that puts exceptionally gifted students through a 10 year education that covers 12 years of learning or more, together with a rigorous weekly schedule of activities that challenge the students physically and in community service. In Korea, there are pull out programmes at the elementary school level, with students being given enrichment programmes that are not necessarily built upon mainstream syllabus. At the secondary and high school levels, there are specialized schools for the gifted in mathematics and science.\"
\"If we look around East Asia, we will find exactly the same phenomenon. If we look at China, Taiwan and Korea, I would say there is more stress, more overload in the system. These are the reports we get. Singapore expatriates who send their children to schools in China or Taiwan tell us it is more stressful. In Korea, there is a saying that they drum into kids at a young age, 'Sleep five hours, fail. Sleep four hours, pass'. Richard Lim, who runs Majullah Connection in the US, told me recently over the email that he was talking to some students from China who had the opportunity of studying in Singapore along the way, who spent a few years studying in Singapore. They told him that our Singapore system struck them as being much more rounded than the system that they had gone through.\"
\"Even China has no compunction in creating special paths for different talents, be it academic talents, musical talents, gymnastic talents. They have many experimental schools now which go much further than what we are proposing in our Report. Take for instance Beijing Jingshan School, one of their experimental schools, from primary school all the way up to senior middle. It provides a through-train for all its primary school students to go on to junior middle school. And the top junior middle students, the top 10% or so, are provided a through-train to go on to senior middle. If you look at some of their other experimental schools, they provide a through-train for the top students in Science and Mathematics to the top universities. Again, we are not proposing this, but I raise this as an illustration of how even China, a relatively egalitarian society, is providing these differentiated paths and not shrinking from it. Because they know that in the knowledge-based environment of the future, they need outstanding talents.\"
I have had the privilege of interviewing, hiring, and working with top grads from anywhere in the world. I love the openness and brilliance that they have brought to my life and work. It is this sort of differentiation that we should try to bring out in our kids, while at the same time inculcating values that are important to us. It is a borderless world that we live in, and it is through differentiated programmes like the GEP in Singapore and others like it in other parts of the world that may be part of the answer. -
tamarind:
When my son was in kindergarten, his teacher did just that. He was appointed as a little teacher or teacher asst and he helped the other children with their work and he really enjoyed going to school then. But now that he's in primary school, there's really no opportunity to 'reprise' this role cos the class is conducted such that they are not supposed to distract each other..
Well I am not gifted. So I do not completely understand how the minds of other gifted children work. May be they already had tuition at home, and already knew everything in the subject very well. But it will still do them a lot of good if they go about helping other students.
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